UNLOCK The Self Made Mindset That Built A Beauty Empire From Nothing | Your Mind, Your Rules Podcast #5 Mona Kattan

Get your copy of Your Mind, Your Rules here: https://smarturl.it/u3hAnQ

In this episode of Your Mind, Your Rules, Mona Kattan, the self made founder behind one of the world's most loved fragrance houses, opens up about the mindset that took her from nothing to building a global empire, the rules she had to break along the way, and the one mistake that almost cost her everything.

Mona shares the moment at 13 that changed the entire trajectory of her life, the belief she had to install before anyone else would believe in her, and the three rules she'd give any woman who wants to build something real. There's also a deeply honest conversation about the chapter she now regrets, the period where she suppressed something most ambitious women are told to hide, and what happened the moment she stopped.

The conversation goes deep into why hard work alone is not enough, why authenticity outperforms strategy, and the energy every successful woman eventually has to come back to.

In this episode:

The self made mindset that builds real wealth from nothing

Why 80 percent of success is something you can't see

The three rules every woman in business needs to know

The belief that makes people pay you what you're worth

The trap most ambitious women fall into without realising

The shift that brought Mona's intuition and clarity back

This is part of the Your Mind, Your Rules podcast, focused on helping you understand the patterns and beliefs that shape your results and how to change them.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

So welcome to another edition of Your Mind, Your Rules. And today I'm interviewing someone who's so important because this is Mona Katan, who is a very glamorous rule breaker. My favourite people in the world are self-made people and even more self-made women because so many people who make it have a lot of money behind them or family business, but you didn't. You came on your own and created your own rules. So I'd love to ask you, how did you become a self-made woman? Because I know women looking at you thinking, how do you do that? You know, you're such a role model for women.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

So thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

If someone's watching here today going, Mona, where did you start? Because I want to do what you did, come from nowhere, and have an amazing brand and be recognized for it. So take me back to how you began.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Thank you so much for the introduction and for um, you know, for saying all of that, because I feel like it's also something that I'm so passionate about is like encouraging everyone, but especially women, to to believe in themselves and to understand that they can do whatever they put their minds to, even if they have no, you know, they don't come from a rich family, a business family, um, or even if they have, you know, circumstances that are even maybe more challenging than most. Um, so where did I, where did I begin? How do I even start? I don't, I don't know. It's such a like, I feel like every part of my life was like a part of the alignment of where I am today. Like even coming from an immigrant family, being born in the US, having circumstances that were maybe made me feel a little bit more of an outsider. Um, I feel like that pushed me to be a good student because I didn't feel like it belonged with my classmates. So I always sat in the front row, I was always very studious. I always just pushed myself to like learn and take like my teachers very seriously. So I feel like that was like a part of my work ethic. Also having a dad who's a professor, um, he always pushed me to read, to educate myself, to learn. Um, and even though he was only a professor, he was never a businessman, he was always very driven. He's very hungry, he's always like trying to push himself to grow. Um, and I think part of that comes from him coming from a country such as Iraq, where you know, he left because of insecurities, safety issues, you know, political issues. So I feel like my drive is very deep-rooted from my parents' trauma.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Do you have something that I see in a lot of people called I'll show you? I know you were the youngest of three girls, you're an immigrant, you felt different. And of course, our greatest need is to be the same. But I see a lot of people who say I was different. I was the black sheep, I was the only one, I didn't belong, and it gave me a drive, which I I call it the I'll show you. Do you think you you had the I'll show you in your body and you wanted to prove yourself? You know, I was told I would never be able to have a baby. I had cancer twice and was told I'd have to live with that forever. I got run over and was told I couldn't walk for six months and actually walked in six weeks. And each time I got that diagnosis, I thought, no, this is my mind, my rules. I bounced back from cancer. I had a perfect baby. I recovered from being run over super fast, and I used the techniques in this book. In fact, I wrote this book while I was in plus for having been run over, because the things that made me bounce back will make you bounce back from relationship issues, wealth issues, childhood issues, confidence issues. If you want to live your life on your terms and have love, success, health, wealth, even the body of your dreams, it's all in here, buy it, and change your life forever.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

I don't know if it was about proving myself because I feel like I've never cared about what people think. And I think part of that is because I sat in the front row. I only cared about my teachers and my parents. I never really cared about society so much, like their approval. But I think that part of it was um looking up to people such as, you know, Tony Robbins was a big part of my childhood. When I moved from Tennessee to Massachusetts, I was 13. This was before social media, before, you know, when making friends was a lot more difficult. So I felt depressed. I got really depressed. I like barely left my couch. Yeah. The first year, I was like, oh, just take me back. I want my friends. I want, you know, I felt very lonely. It was very different. I felt lonely. I gained weight. I think just from like being there, and obviously I struggle with my weight, which I talked to you about. So I just felt like really stuck. And then I don't know how I stumbled across 20 Robin CDs and I binged them and I started getting really into it. And I felt very inspired, very motivated. And at the age of 13, I started setting goals. The first one was to lose weight, and like within one year, I lost 50 pounds. I got a full-time job, like less than a year later, and I was working, I was very driven, I was like very productive. And I think that's where the obsession with productivity, achievement, goal setting started at such a young age. So it was like foundational years of my life. So it got me really into personal development. And then through that, I started reading a lot and reading about stories about entrepreneurs. And um, I think that's where the belief started happening, like self-belief of like anything you put your mind to is possible. So I feel like that's where the entrepreneurial drive came from. And also coming from a family that couldn't provide me more than my needs. My dad was very honest. Um, when I was 13, 14, he was like, I was like, Dad, I want cool clothes, I want to fit in, I want to like look cool and feel cool. And he was like, you know, I can give you your basic needs, like shelter, food. He's like, anything more than that, like I just can't. And I and I was understanding, and then I and I didn't want to ever put pressure on him because I knew that you know, he was providing for many children, you know, we we come from children, five, five kids, and um, and all his extra money he was sending back home to his relatives, which I was like, I don't want to take from that. Um, so I started working really, really hard, and um, I just never stopped. I haven't stopped working since I was 14.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yeah, me too. I read that you wanted to be a teacher, which is because I was also I went to teach a training school. I got all the way through it and then thought, actually, no, but you are a teacher, and you know, I'm a teacher too. We just teach in a different way. So, for people watching, what could you teach them? How do you become a successful businesswoman? Could you help teach since you want to teach, could you teach our audience some of the rules you had to break, and some of the rules you had to create? Because we're all born with rules, but people who make it actually create their own rules.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Right. You're so, you're so right. Um, I think the love of being a teacher came from my parents, my dad being a professor, my mom was actually a school teacher as well, growing like when she was younger before she had children. I think that you know, what I would teach anyone watching is that I think very related to everything that you, you know, have taught me and everything that you teach, which is really about mindset and also RTT being a very powerful tool. Um, your life will be what you create. Yeah. You know, you have to stop believing limitations. And that is one thing that I'd say is maybe a blessing of mine. Like people always tell me, like, oh, is it harder being an Arab woman in business? And I'm like, not for me, because I don't see it. Only if you believe it. I don't believe it. So like I've never felt different in a room because I just never allowed myself to feel that way. I've always been like, you know what? I don't see the limitations, so they're not there for me, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Yeah, you know, I was on stage with Anna Winter last year and she was talking about the glass ceiling. And I thought, you know, I don't believe in the glass ceiling. I think the glass ceiling is in here. And if there is a glass ceiling, you must smash it. Absolutely you must smash through it. Do you believe there's a glass ceiling?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

I believe in your mind, your rules. And again, like I think a lot of it has been reaffirmed by, you know, your amazing RTT. And I've seen your teachings impact my life, my team's life, people I've met, um, you know, and I think mindset is everything. I think that your life is what you make it. Yeah, you know, there if you don't believe in there's a glass ceiling. And going back to when I was growing up, um, one of my inspirations was Oprah, for sure, you know, because I would always look at her and I'd say, if there's anyone to like make excuses for themselves, it should be her. She is she was a black woman in the 80s in poverty, in poverty, struggled with her weight. She wasn't like she was this model on TV. She had all the reasons to say, I can't make it because. But she never did. She never did, she never made excuses. And I was like, How dare I make excuses if someone like Oprah can become this mogul, this powerful woman who's influencing the whole world, who also went through trauma of her own and everything that she went through, you know, I was just like, no excuses, like just not allowing it.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Yeah, because 80% of your success is mindset, you know, it it you can work very, very hard, but you must have that mindset of I'm worth it and I'm going to do it. So a lot of people now talk about manifesting and they don't understand the hard work. And I know many people who've manifested a great deal, but they work extraordinarily hard. So I know that you work really hard, often seven days a week. What would you say to someone who said, Well, I'm just going to manifest?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Well, then you're just dreaming. Yeah. You gotta do both. Yeah. You have to do both. You might be lucky, and some things that you are manifesting might come into fruition, but I think the reality is you need both. Like, I'll tell you one thing. My dad, hardest worker, but has the worst mindset. That's why he struggled his entire life. And even today, he chooses to struggle all the time. Because as soon as he solves one problem, he finds a new one and he starts obsessing with it. He's always like, the world is dark, the world is gloomy, like there's problems. And I'm like, Dad, you have no problems. I literally take care of everything for you at this stage. But he chooses to struggle, and I think part of it is just like that's how he was raised. He had a hard life. Um, so you could be a hard worker, but if you don't manifest, you're not gonna probably make it. If you only manifest and you don't work hard, you're also just gonna probably be in debt and or live like a hippie and have nothing to fall back on. So you have to do both.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Yeah, and also, you know, you some people work very, very hard and they just make enough money to get by, and other people make a lot of money, and we have to look at what's the difference. So the people who make it have this belief I bring value. So the best restaurant, the best surgeon, the best school tell you you are paying for value. So if you want to make it, one of the first things you must do is start to say, I'm a person of value, I bring value. You have to back it up too.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

You have to back it up the extra value and push yourself to go above and beyond the norms.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

But that's part of the mindset. The mindset is what I have to offer is huge value. I'm it's in a relationship with your partner. If you believe that you're a person of value, they're not going to want to leave you. So it's really important while you're working on mindset and manifesting that you take a minute and start to say, I'm a person of value, and what I have to offer brings immense value. Because if you believe it, other people believe it.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

100%. It definitely starts with you. And um, if you don't believe in it, I mean, I've seen I've seen it in many examples, you know, relationships being a wonderful example. Because I think there's so many times we all have seen like the most beautiful girl with like the most maybe not, I'm not even gonna talk about looks, you know, maybe she's the best package and she's with a guy who's so average, or vice versa. A guy who's so average, um, sorry, a guy who's a big package and whatever, and then he's with the girl who's maybe not, but it's all about how you believe in yourself and like that belief of like you being the best package out there is like what's going to make people feel.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

And that's exactly what Oprah had. You see, she always believed she brought value when she started her very first little TV show. She never doubted for a minute the value she was bringing. And so people who make it always leave clues, and we have to study them and say, Well, what can I learn? So if you had to teach us three rules for being a successful business, if you had to pick three to help our audience, what would you say are three rules that we could all apply to become successful?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

I mean, it's gonna be hard to limit to three.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

You can have as many as you like.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

But let me start with first of all, um, get to know yourself. You know, work on yourself and make make that your best project. Because the more you grow, the more you're going to be a better person, better leader, better entrepreneur, a better partner. You're just gonna be better in every single way. So self-development, personal development, therapy being probably one of the most important things you'll ever do for yourself. And I always say this: I don't have any regrets in life because I believe in you know, everything happens for a reason. But if I had to pick one, it would be not starting therapy sooner. I started, you know, the same year I met you. That was when I started my therapy journey. I wish I started earlier. Yeah. So work on yourself. You are um, it's the best investment you'll ever make. And I think it will only put you in more alignment of who you're meant to be, and that's what you know, we should all be seeking. It's not being someone else or living someone else's path. It's like being in alignment of what you're here for, and we all have a different purpose um and different interest. And you know, so I think that's number one. Number two, I would say um have a great attitude, you know, always see the silver lining in every situation, find a way to make lemons out lemonade out of lemons, you know, because if you have a negative mindset, you're never gonna get anywhere. And also in relation to that, always empower yourself, you know, take ownership. If you, if something wrong happens in any situation, ask yourself, how could I have done better? How could I have prevented that? Always blame yourself, which might seem you know harsh, but I I realized every time I started to blame myself for everything, that's when I liked it better. Because I'm like, I now take the ownership and empowerment, empowerment of like improving situations and dream really big. Dream as big as you can and never give up. Yeah, you can evolve, but don't give up. You know, I've I've evolved a lot. You know, when I first started my first business, it wasn't a fragrance. Although I love fragrances, it wasn't, but I kept evolving. So every time, and I had a lot of failures, many, you know, and um that's totally fine because they led you to success. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

So they weren't really failures because every time you do something and fail, you learn where you should be going and where you shouldn't be going.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Exactly. And you get experience, you know. I think maybe it's failures to society's, um, you know, expectations, like having to liquidate a business, losing tons of money on a business. It's happened many times. Um, but I never let that make me bitter or sad or feeling bad about myself. I was like, I'm gonna suck it up. I'm gonna take every learning I can. I'm gonna study it as if it was like, you know, a case study and blame myself and take full ownership and use it for the future. So don't be afraid to evolve. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

And don't be afraid to say this is my fault, because if it's your fault, that's great news. You can fix it. If it's someone else's fault, you might go, oh, this is my fault. I made a wrong decision, I listened to the wrong person, I took on the wrong business partner. But if it's my fault, isn't that fantastic? I can learn from it and fix it. Yeah, it's when it's someone else's fault. You feel betrayed. You pity yourself. Yeah, but when it's your fault, you go, Well, I made a mistake, and a person never made a mistake, guess what? They never made anything. So we should never beat ourselves up for making mistakes because they take us where we're meant to go.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

So what I love about you, and what I see in you, is that you've made a success of doing something you already love, and that's such a clue that it's very hard to have a successful business doing something you hate. But when you do something you love, it's easier because you you have that passion. It's not like, oh, I've got to go to work today. So I've always looked at people and seen three three ways to be successful. The first way, of course, is to inherit a business, but that's quite rare. And if it's not your joy, I see many people who inherit a business and it's all gone. I mean, actually, 90% of inherited wealth is gone in three generations.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

And that's right.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Because it wasn't your passion.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

And you didn't work hard for it, so you don't value it as much as you.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

You never value it in work for you. So your first, if you could be successful, you could inherit it, but you might get rid of it. And the second way is to be like someone like Steve Jobs and invent something completely brand new, but that's very hard. And the third way, which you've done, which I did too, actually, is to take something out there and go, I could improve this. You know, Starbucks didn't invent coffee, Lululemon did not invent little black stretchy leggings, they invented a way to market something that was already out there and make it better. So I've seen what you've done. You've taken something out there, perfume, which was kind of traditional, and these perfume houses have been there for a hundred years. And you took something and you actually made it relevant and funky and better.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

So sweet. Yeah, but that's what you've done. And you see, people could you could look out there and go, hey, I I could take something. After all, Spanks didn't invent shapeware, and neither did skims, but they took something very traditional, we used to call it control wear, and they actually made it relevant and funky and better. And you've done that with fragrance. You know, I looked at it and thought, yes, that's what you've done. It's very clever, but we can all do it. What's out there that I could make better? You know, Sephora actually took a fragrance haul from somewhere like Harrods, and they made it a standalone shop. They took something that's already there, but they made it relevant and funky. And when I walk through Dubai Mal, I always noticed Sephora's always busy and no other fragrance shops are.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yay.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

It's true. I said to my husband, look at Sephora. You see, what they've done is this is um a fragrance haul from Selfridges that they've made standalone. So it takes a little bit of, you know, look at what is out there. You know, I took therapy, thought therapy's got such a strange message. It says, Well, all pain is equal, but the treatment of pain is not equal. If I had a headache and went to the doctor's or the emergency room, or I had a broken treatment, went to the dentist, they would fix it. But therapy says, bring me your pain, we'll get to know each other. Imagine going to the say, I've broken my leg. He goes, Well, let's let's talk about it today. Very nice. Come back next week. We've made some good progress. But my leg's still in pain. I still have a broken leg. So I've seen what you've done and I've seen how, but I want you to tell the audience how you took something that was traditional and especially how you use TikTok and how you use social media to make it so phenomenal because I think people see it, but they can't break down what you've done.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

I'd love you to break at least a little bit break it down because you're such an inspiration.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

You're so sweet. You're my inspiration. I love you so much. I always tell people my two obsessions in life are like fragrances and therapy. Yeah. Like, if I wasn't doing this, I'd be in therapy. I kind of feel like it's related, so it gives me a lot of fulfillment. But um, but they are um my passions and I and I look up to you so much. I think for you know, for Kayeli specifically, it it definitely was something that I wanted. So I felt there was something missing as a fragrance above. What did you see that was missing? So much. As you mentioned before, like the um the landscape of fragrances was very traditional, or it was very niche and very expensive, or it was too cheap and too playful and not quality. So I felt there was something really missing out there. And at the time I was still working with, you know, my family at Color Cosmetics, so I was so plugged into Sephora, and I was also a perfume content creator, so I was being sent all these, you know, PR from brands. I was an ambassador for two um big brands for fragrance. So I had the experience of being sent product and educated from these brands in a way that made no sense to me. You know, I, you know, had an ambassadorship with a big corporation um that owns many brands and fragrances, and they would be like, Oh, this is how we'd like you to talk about the launch. And I'm like, You're giving me French words that I don't even know as a fragrance-obsessed person. I was like, at the time I didn't know what siage meant and all these things. And I was like, give it to me in a way that's easy to understand, easy to explain, so I can then share it with my community in a way that will make them get it. So I felt like so much was missing, which is why I was like, let's take everything that I'm missing and I feel it's missing, add it together. Another thing was the price point. I was like, I loved niche quality, you know, those fragrances you'd put on that are more different, more unique, didn't smell as commercial, like the scent itself was more original, and then also having high dosage of perfume oil, uh, being more long-lasting, and then also just a beautiful bottle, like high quality bottle, but at a good price point because all the niche brands I was wearing, I'd like literally count the sprays because I was like, it's so expensive. They were like $300 plus. All right, and I wouldn't enjoy wearing it because I was like, I really can't afford this. Like, I shouldn't be spending $300 on a bottle of perfume. So I'd wear it with like happiness but sadness at the same time. So I was like, I don't want people to feel that way too. So it's like, how do we mix everything and put it in no man's land and like put it in this like white space? And in all honesty, we got a lot of pushback at the time, even when we're like, this is where we want to be in this matrix of like you know, the fragrance landscape. People were like, that doesn't make any sense. And we're like, they're like, Who are you competing against? We're like, nobody, we're gonna be our own thing and everybody push back for a long time, and even for the first years, for a few first few years, it was very challenging.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Um and how did you keep going in those challenging times? Because so many people give up. So what was it in you that made you keep going?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

I am relentless. And again, I think it all comes down to mindset.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

It does.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

I don't give up easy. It's like tip and sometimes in part of my life, I think in many circumstances, I did take too long to give up on things I should have given up on sooner. But with Kaylee, I think that I always knew for with certainty that it was eventually going to become something really big. It was going to work. And I had this strong belief that it would happen eventually. So I just never allowed myself to give up, no matter how hard it got. And it got very hard. And it still is very hard. Um in regards to like how we, you know, communicate on social, I would say the beginning of the traction actually came from our session because I think that, you know, before doing RTT, I was very confused on how to like express myself emotionally. And I know we talked about that a lot. I did. Um, and I actually had no awareness that I had all these blockages around expression, my throat chakra, my feminine energy. I had so many blockages when I met you in 2020, and I was like, oh my gosh, I had no clue. And then after working with you, I was like, okay, this is what this makes me feel. I had even like lost that connection of my feelings. So I think through, you know, first doing therapy and then understanding how fragrances made me feel and why I was so obsessed with them made me understand a bit better like how to communicate that through social media. Because prior to that, it was like, how do you sell a fragrance through content? It's very hard because it's not visual except the bottle. And then, of course, through time, um, I started to hire my own team, my own content team, um, who are here today. They're amazing. Um, and they helped me, you know, in so many ways of like even improving the storytelling, making it more interesting, make it more relatable, you know, TikTok being a big part of, you know, my team, they're like glued into TikTok. So it's very collaborative. Um, but I'd say the beginning of that really came from therapy, like becoming a better storyteller. And of course, I have to say it was a COVID catalyst. You know, with COVID, um, people started to find fragrances help them more in terms of feeling better in a small space, and that helped us grow our community online because before COVID, and before I think we also paved the way of like explaining how fragrances made you feel, there was like a handful of content creators in the space, and now there's like an endless supply, which is fantastic. You know, there's a lot of people talking about fragrances, and that led to so much disruption in the industry, and now everybody is pushing themselves to innovate, and these older, more traditional brands are now being forced to be more exciting, more relatable, more human, more humble, more down-to-earth, more um just connected with their community because for a long time they were so snobby.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Well, they were also aspirational. It was like, okay, my grandmother wears Shalima, my grandmother wears Chanel number five. It was a very traditional, yeah, aspirational perfume, but it wasn't fun or funky.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

No. And I used to tell Sephora this all the time when I was like, when I first pitched the brand to them in 2017, even the early days when we actually launched, I was like, fragrance has not been disrupted yet. Yeah, it's one of the it's a forgotten category, it's not disrupted, it will be. It will happen. And they were like, no. Initially, obviously later everything changed, but they're like, it's never layering's never gonna happen. This whole idea is crazy. The data proves it will never happen.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

And I love the layering, how you put perfume in your hair. You you you spread and you walk into it and you layer it. And I think that's such a brilliant idea.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Thank you. I mean, it was inspired by the people in the Middle East.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Um, I didn't make it up personally, but but it doesn't matter, you took you took it. It's not none of us own anything. Oh, someone took my idea, but it an idea is not a is nothing until someone funds it, it's just an idea. So it doesn't matter if you didn't invent it. You you took it rather again, like I was inspired.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

I was very inspired by the people here in the Middle East and their fragrance rituals, the layering, the the connection they had to fragrance was so like deep and it was not an afterthought. It was like people took their fragrance so seriously here. It's like, oh my gosh, it's life-changing. I hope we can share this with the world. And yeah, I think now um everywhere is starting to pick up too. Even in places like America, where before it was like you'd only save your fragrance, most people, not everyone, but they would save it for special mists.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

They don't mean as it goes off.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Yeah, they would save it. They'd wear their body mist on a daily basis, maybe. Um, but for like a perfume, they would only save it for like the birthday, the date night, the whatever. But now it's like everybody realizes you're so special, wear it every day.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah, and actually, if you wear something beautiful, beautiful underwear, it makes you feel good. But if you think you can't take an idea, then just look at James Dyson. He didn't invent a vacuum cleaner, but he saw something that had been around forever, well, certainly 100 years. He saw a flaw. He that when you change the dust back, well, the dust went everywhere. And he revolutionized it and he charged $700 for a vacuum cleaner, $700 for a hairdryer. People bought it because he took an idea and he thought I could improve it. And that's really what you've done. All people who are brilliant take an existing idea, they very rarely reinvent the well, they take an idea and they go, Where's the floor? We're so busy looking at what people are doing right, we should look at what someone is doing wrong. Where's the flaw? And how could I improve it? Which you've done, but you've also done something very clever. You see, when you tell a story, you get onto someone's brainwave, and they get onto your brainwave, which is why we used to tell stories around the campfire. When you tell a story, you connect. So your stories, your social, your TikTok, you're connecting with your consumers, but they're also connecting with you, and we don't teach enough about find a story, tell a story. So tell me a little bit about the stories you're telling through your brand.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Well, I think everybody has a story, yeah. And most people don't realize it.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Well, they don't think anyone's going to be interested in it.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

And uh, the truth is everybody has an interesting story. I do think being authentic is important. And that's why that's why there is a story for every Kali fragrance we've ever launched. Like, there is actually truth to the meaning behind it, the purpose behind it, the emotions behind it. Like, we put so much love and passion to every single thing we launch, and we've never just launched something just because. Like when people were like, Oh, you should launch this because we're like, I'm not gonna do it until it's really important and until we really feel connected to it, no matter what. Um, and if I'm gonna be very honest with you, I would say I did learn that from my sister because she was always like very against being a Me Too brand. Because even during the rise of like, you know, Huda Beauty and everything, there were so many times where retailers would be like, You should launch this, it's trending, it's the biggest thing. You're gonna get so much more sales just from launching this. She'd be like, No. Because it didn't feel authentic. It didn't feel authentic. So I was really, you know, I admired that about her, expected that about her. So I also became the same. I was like, never doing it unless it's authentic. No matter what, we're never gonna copy anybody else, we're never gonna just like repeat something just because. So I think having authenticity helps you always have a story because you're never gonna do it unless there is a real connection to something. And then being able to tell that story is very important too. You just have to like dig in, reflect, journal. The story comes to you, talk about it to people because before you know it, you're starting to understand, like, you know, where the love comes from. Even for me, like the love for fragrances, I didn't realize why I was so obsessed before until I realized I love making people feel their best. And I was like, that's why I'm so passionate about fragrances because when I see someone spark and like light up and feel certain emotions, like because I'm such a sensitive person and because I love therapy, it feels like something in my like meaningful bucket is being filled, if you know what I mean. So it's like that's where a lot of my drive comes from.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

You've managed to stay completely authentic, which is very admirable and not that common. You know, you've got a beautiful heart, you are kind of personified. It's really who you are, but how have you managed to stay so authentic in a kind of cutthroat business? How have you done that? Because people are very scared, you know, it's like this rule oh, if I'm successful, then my marriage will suffer. I won't be able to be a good pair and I'll become tough and and and I'll lose my nice edge. So a lot of us are scared of fame because they think it changes us, but it doesn't seem to have changed you at your core. So, how do people stay authentic when building a huge brand, a huge business?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Um, I think for me personally, I would say it's been two reasons of why. I think number one, first and foremost, my parents are very like humble and down-to-earth, and they're very grounded. Like, my parents don't care about success, they don't care about money, they don't care about anything. Like, I bought my dad a car. It was the first thing I bought him when I got significant money. I bought him a brand new Mercedes. I had never bought a brand new car in my life at the time. And he was like, I don't want it, I want a Honda. And he like got rid of it shortly after, and I was like, Thanks, Dad. I was like, I'm so upset. But my parents just don't care about money. So, like, because of that, it's made me realize like, although it's great to like achieve certain things and be financially rewarded because of that, it never made me define anyone's value. Like, no one is more valuable or less valuable because of what they have or do not have. So I think that's made me feel very grounded. And also, whether someone has success or even achievement or they don't have achievement, I shouldn't judge them. Like just because someone's not as driven as me doesn't mean I should judge them. We all have a different upbringing and different reasons behind our situation in life, whether someone's more driven to be a housewife or more driven to be a um a coach or therapist or not driven at all. Everybody has different stories, so no judgment. Um, and then I think secondly, nothing happened overnight for me at all. Like nothing happened.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

There's no overnight success for anybody.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

This has been 20 years in the making. I mean, in fact, I think even part of it started from childhood. It was in the beauty pageant. So like it kind of taught me to be like from the age of three to seven. It was like my formative years. I did 11 pageants, so it was like a lot of my time. At the time, I hated it. But when my mom took me out, I actually was really sad because I think by the end of it, I actually liked it. Because when you're three and four and five, like you don't want to smile on stage and like do all this training of like how to walk, how to pose, how to talk, like rehearse your answers. It was just very like um, it felt very forced as a kid. Um, but then I think it did help me become a little bit more emotionally regulated, it helped me become um a little bit better at certain things that helped today because it was like my formative years, but it also got me used to some sort of fame at a very young age. I used to be on cars and parades, I was in the newspapers from like that age. So it was like nothing that I'm experiencing today felt very foreign because it's been such a buildup. And then as soon as social media came around, I was glued into it from the very early days of like, you know, MySpace, high five, like back then, even MSN. So I've always been so into community and social media and media. So I never felt like it was a sudden rise. Maybe if it was, it would get to my head. Like I've seen some people blow up overnight. I think that's very hard to handle no matter who, no matter how grounded you are, no matter how great of appearance you have, I think it's very difficult. But for me, it's been so gradual.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Carrie Fisher said that. You know, she said at 18 or 16, I was Princess Lair in Star Wars. I started at the top, and guess where I went? Down, because there was nowhere else to go. So actually, when you achieve something immediately, and especially when parents give their children everything, they take away the one thing you need, which is the hunger, the drive. So if you buy your kids a business and another business, another business, you're stealing from them the thing we need, which is the drive, the burning desire to go out and achieve something on our own. Because it's actually it's it's in the achieving that we feel so good. And I see so many celebrities that actually end up going into a massive self-destruct because it was too easy. They were an overnight success. And they think, well, I I didn't earn this. But you know, you've earned it, you've worked so hard for it, so you can actually sit back and go, hey, I I earned all of that. It wasn't given to me.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

I think so. Yeah, I think you're so right. And if things were different, I probably wouldn't be this way. I think another thing that has helped me in my journey um was actually in 2017, that was like the year where, in all honesty, we received, you know, certain amounts of capital that at that time I could completely retire and live a lavish lifestyle for the rest of my life. Um, it made me have to search for meeting. You know, like why do I still come to work every day and push myself so hard, don't take vacations, you know, really go into full drive. I had to search for like why I'm doing all of this. And I did meet with Simon Sinek, who's become a very good friend of mine and somebody I really admire and look up to. And like having to dig in and understand the why besides just achievement and financial reward. Because once you get there and you don't you don't want to stop, yeah, you have to find other reasons to motivate yourself. So finding out my why and also thinking like beyond just. So what was your why?

SPEAKER_02 35:48

What is your why?

SPEAKER_00 35:50

So through my um, through my you know exercises in Simon, it was find your light. So like me finding my light and helping other people find their light, which could mean so many different things. It's like making people realize they're so much better than they think they are, like seeing them grow, seeing them, you know, um think that they are only capable of so much, and then seeing them become so much more capable. I think that's very exciting to me. It makes me feel like I'm growing, but also they're growing. So that just is such a rewarding feeling, but also making people realize that they're enough, like which is something that you talk about all the time. So, like all of that collectively, like seeing people uh align and just grow and just light up with happiness, you know. I think that's really special.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

And you said something very important, it isn't just about you. You see, a lot of people are scared of wealth, and we hear all these silly things, it's lonely at the top. When you have money, you never know who your friends are. When you have money, your life's not your own, but it's not about you. You've created a whole empire, you've given so many people a career, so it's no longer about you, it's about what you've done for others. But how do you find the right team? What are you looking for in a team? Because you have great loyalty here. Your staff stay with you.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

When you're looking for a team, what are you looking for? How do you find these and also how do you keep them?

SPEAKER_00 37:10

I think it's probably the hardest part of the job, actually, is like finding good people, retaining good people, and building the best culture, protecting the culture. I think it's by far the hardest thing. Yeah, it's even harder than like having a vision, having a long-term.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Why is it harder?

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Because people are difficult. We're human. Yeah, you know, we're not robots, we have emotions, we have feelings, we can change, we have life circumstances that could really put pressure on people, and um and creating good leaders is very hard too, because as you scale and grow, it's not only how you treat people, it's how their managers treat them and their managers treat them. So I think that in making sure that all the leaders in the company are treating people the same way I would treat them is not easy, and you also don't know everything. So picking is hard. Um, we do have a really good filtering system, I think, you know, personally. Like we go through so many layers of interviews, and I have non-negotiables, you know, for me. What exactly? Sure, of course.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

So we're important, the non-negotiables.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

We have um something called our Kali, like core values and pillars, and we kind of like created an image of a house, and to me, it's like what builds a Kali, you know, uh magic maker, which is what we call our team, our magic makers. So um the pillars are curious, hungry, kind, and grateful. So curious because always having that drive to learn more, ask questions, also being humble because when you're curious, you know you don't know it all. Like having that mindset of curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Yeah, nobody can know at all.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Nobody knows it all, no matter who you are, no matter how much experience you have. You're never gonna be the smartest person in the room for all topics. So have an open mind. Um, and always learn, like learn as much as you possibly can. Um, hunger, you know, something we talked about, having an entrepreneurial mindset and drive and attitude, like being willing to roll up your sleeves no matter what. Um, not be like that's not my job. Like, no, like be hungry, you know, be hungry and be driven and think like an owner, think like a boss um kind, because you know, that's super important to me. I like truly believe in no asshole policy. Yeah, you know, if someone is awful to their team, like they don't belong here, they don't belong here no matter what, you know, and that goes to the team inside our retail partners, our community, like you can't treat people badly.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

No, I I agree. I think the most the best exercise you can ever do as a woman is lean in and lift up another woman. Absolutely. Or lean in and lift up many women, and we're here when you make it as a woman, your job is to lean in and lift up some other women behind you because that's so important. How do you stop yourself micromanaging? Because it's your business, it's your baby, and a lot of people find that a huge problem. They've kind of they've got their finger in every pie. How do you not micromanage?

SPEAKER_00 40:04

I don't think I don't think I've ever been a micromanager, but I do care about the details, you know. I I think it's important to be detailed because the difference between ordinary and extraordinary is that small little extra detail. Of course, you know, so as soon as you stop caring about the details, you're not gonna be the best.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

I love that. It's so true, and we should all hear that as soon as you stop caring about the detail, mediocre, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yes, of course, which is just like the way it goes down to like not being, you know, we won't grow, and before you know it, you're gonna be left behind. The people that get ahead are the people who are so detailed, but and passionate, passionate, passionate, exactly. Um, but I think you just need clarity of what you want and your expectations and being as crystal clear with all of your leaders so they can be crystal clear with their team. I think that helps with micromanagement. Um, but the reality is as a founder-led brand, I'm never gonna not be involved in many things because there are things that really matter to me. There are things that matter less in terms of how things get done. So, like everything on the front end, which is to me product, content, events, PR, people and culture, like those things I have my hands fully into. And I'm never gonna stop because it's a founderlet brand. On the back end, so like operations, logistics, supply chain, finance, as long as they're doing a phenomenal job, I'm not gonna ask too many questions and be as involved in like what systems you're using, and like what why did you make that decision? Like, do what you need to do to get the job done, but everything on the front end, I think as a founder led brand, you have to be super involved.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

How comfortable are you employing people who are better than you? Because I see so many people who go, Oh, I can't I I have to be the best. So you can be a little bit less than me. You know, I employ writers who are much better, even though I've written eight books. I'll find a writer who's better than me and I'll say, you know, this person is amazing, use them. But I see a lot of people who can't do that. Yeah. How good are you employing people who are better than you in certain areas?

SPEAKER_00 42:00

I mean, everybody we employ are better than me in the area that we're that you can say that.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

They have to be. Not everybody can say that.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yeah, I mean, if like if my head of operations is not better in operations with me, I'm screwed. And for every department, like finance, every single area. Um, I think that, you know, when you're recruiting a team, if you're not looking for A plus players, that just means you're a C player, right? They say, like, A people hire A people, B people hire C people, and then you can't even go down there, you know. Like you should look for people who are gonna teach you something, lift up the team. Yeah. You know, we're one team, and that's what I always try to like encourage to everyone is never think of like you and your team. We're one KLE team. You know, we are not competing, we shouldn't compete with each other. We should put healthy pressure to grow and to aim higher, but we should never be like competing in a negative way to where like you want to outshine someone or whatever, lift each other up, it will come to you.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

How do you spot a natural leader? Because obviously we're looking for people in a big business, you need leaders. Do you have a way of spotting a leader or developing natural leadership skills?

SPEAKER_00 43:10

I think everybody has it in them. I actually think one of the best ways to help people become a better leader is to help them make help make them feel more secure.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Because I think that the thing that really hurts leadership is big egos.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Because then people start to think of themselves rather than the team. As soon as people start to feel more secure and more comfortable in where they are, who they are, and feel that safety, I think that they rise up and they want to lift everybody up. But when you have a culture that either makes people feel unsafe and secure, that's when they start to think about themselves. So I think you know, you need to find people who maybe are more secure with who they are. And that comes from so many things, um, but you also have to keep them feeling secure. So give people Room to make small mistakes, obviously not huge ones, um, but give a lot of instant feedback so they're not second guessing where they stand, you know, like make them always feel like they know exactly where they stand in the organization with their teams, but also give them long-term vision and direction of where we're going because that makes people feel safe. Of course, and it makes them feel more invested, and then they can lead other people in the same direction of like we know where we're going. So, of course, some people I think are more natural at leadership than others, but I think it can be coached, and I think therapy, coaching really help people be a better leader through just having less of an ego. Yeah, I think a leadership is making everyone kill their ego at the door.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Because then creativity comes out, new ideas come out, positive you know, positive connection comes out, and people stop competing with each other when the ego's gone.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

See, you I'm sure you know this, but smell is so linked to aggression. It's the brain always goes back to work out what something means. So if I smell Chalinar, that was my grandmother, if I smell Chanel, it was my mother. I love when I get up in the morning having beautiful, beautiful shower gels because it's smell is such an important thing. It's it's one of the first senses we go back to. And you might know this, but if you take a drug and rub lavender oil on your head and take a pill and rub lavender oil, eventually you don't need to take the pill, you just need to rub the lavender oil on your head. And your brain will actually so if you have a headache and you take a headache pill and put lavender oil on or headache, lavender, eventually your body will go ahead and use just the oil to create the cure because it's linked the cure to the smell. So smell is so important. I love that, yeah. Smell and hearing. And so I love what you're doing with smell. I'm just going to ask you just a couple more questions. I've spent my whole career helping people find the rules and break them. I mean, some rules are good and some we have to give up, like that rule of well, if you're a successful woman. My grandmother would say, Well, men don't marry successful women. That was true then. It's not true now. So I've spent my whole career, and this book too is about which rules serve you, and if they don't, get rid of them. Which rules have you had to break to get rid of, to discard in order to make it?

SPEAKER_00 46:16

I really love this question because um there's one thing that I actually really struggled with pre-my therapy journey. I used to think that, you know, I shouldn't lean into my femininity because I felt scared because I'm naturally a very sensitive, like empath. So I thought to be successful, because I heard it my whole life, to be successful as a woman entrepreneur, you had to be harsh and firm, and you couldn't be soft. And it made me completely check out of my feminine energy, and that's where I felt I started to not have a connection with my intuition. There was like that gut mind, like brain and gut connection was lost, no signal, and I started running into walls all the time, made bad decisions, didn't have that clarity of like direction of where I should go. I I felt like I I didn't know all the time. Like I was like, how am I feeling? I don't know. I don't know. There was so much confusion. Um, I also did go through, I don't know if I'm gonna put this, but I did go through a period where I went on medication to kind of numb out my feelings. My doctor, I went to the doctor for Xanax, and he gave me so many prescriptions and I took them, which I shouldn't have. Like, you know, Prozac, Xanax, other things too. I think that also made me really lose my connection to my anchor.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Of course, because you've just been going the good dead below the end.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

So long to rebuild that. So it was one of my one of my regrets, also.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

Um just been rubbing lavender on your head and not taking the Xanax.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

I didn't know you back then.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

But now you do.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

My my rule I had to teach myself to break was actually leaning into your feminine energy and being an empath still, and actually trusting your emotions is one of the best things you can ever do.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

So being true to yourself, don't deny who you are. That's the saddest thing when you think you have to become someone else.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

I actually think everybody should lean into their feminine energy also. I'm not saying you shouldn't have that masculine energy, it's important too. But like whether you're a woman, a man, whatever you identify as, you should lean into both. You know, you need both energies. I think even all these men, CEOs out there, should try to encourage like processing their emotions, finding out what's going on, journaling, understanding how they're feeling. I think it will also help them be a better leader. But for all the women out there, don't deny your feminine energy and your emotions. Because we're told we're supposed to, but it did the worst things for me. And as soon as I stopped, like my life changed.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

So just two more questions. So many women, in order to make it, start to play by someone else's rules. I need to be tough, I need to be hard, I need to be cold, I need to be, I need to isolate myself from my team. What rules would you say they should immediately give up in order to make it, and in all and what should they adopt?

SPEAKER_00 49:09

I think that you need to be yourself. You we are all individually so special. Everybody is special. Everybody has something unique about them that's gonna make them different to everybody else, and that will be their superpower. And process your feelings, your emotions. Like I'm not saying you need to wear your emotions on your sleeve and not be regulated because it's important that people can come to you and you're calm, collected, and you've got like that stability to give them. But you should still have your own exercises of processing your feelings, keeping it as a well-oiled machine. It's like to me, it's emotional hygiene. It's emotional mental hygiene, journal, do the therapy, do those things. It will make you have so much more clarity and therefore be a better leader, a better um mentor, a better friend to your team. So I think that that's really important. So definitely forget those rules of like having to be cold, having to be harsh. Horrible rules are the worst. I thought that too. And I think I was a little bit more, I wouldn't say I was cold, but it was definitely not as warm as I am today. And I was more firm and a little bit more um like reactive to negative situations. I would kind of like not explode, but I'd be like, oh my gosh, I'm so upset. Or now I'm like, okay, it's all right, we're gonna figure it out. Like, just chill. We don't need to be um aggressive, you know. The opposite of aggressive is not passive, in my opinion. Yeah, of course. It's calm. Just like take it easy, work through it. Everything has a solution.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

A lot of us, a lot of women are scared of success because we're taught, you know, everything has a price, you know, there's that expression, take whatever you want and then pay for it. And so we believe that success costs us our authenticity, our free time, our mental health, even our relationships with others. I don't believe that to be true, but I'd like to ask you one last question. What has success given you and what does it cost you? We'll start with a given.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Um and there's so many different ways to look at this and think about it. I think um, you know, it also depends on how you define success because I used to define it in very different ways. Like I would probably relate it to more tangible things like financial performance, outcomes like that, certain growth. Um now it's more about like, am I in alignment with who I am, who I want to be, etc. Um, but from a financial perspective, I think success gives you a little bit more creative freedom. So like now if I want to hire more people, I can hire more people. I can like do things without thinking as hard about it. I don't have to find, you know, investors for every single thing, you know. Um, even, you know, and my investors in Kaylee, it wasn't to invest in the company, it was to like change my shareholders and not my to remove my family. So, you know, I think it gives you freedom, creative freedom. So, like if I want to do something, I can do it without having to think too much about it.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

Does it give you purpose and meaning? Because that's so.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

I don't think success gives you purpose or meaning. No, I think you have to get it somewhere else, so you have to have it already. And and now I would say my success definition is more about having purpose and meaning it's not a financial outcome, it's not um but that's because you can now you do charity work and you give a lot now.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

So you have found purpose when you're success because it gave you the money and the platform to do something.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

It definitely helps it feel it helps work and the financial achievement feel more meaningful now because we can tie it to giving back, we can tie it to like creating more rewarding, you know, um compensation for our team, like things like that make me very excited. Um, I think what it's cost me, I don't think it has to be this for everyone. Um it's cost me, although I think I should change it. I don't have balance, I don't really go on holidays, I don't take care of my health as much as I should. I should be working out more. I didn't get married until I was 36, you know. Um, and I barely see my husband even now, uh, which is not great, you know. So in reality, to be as driven as I am, it has cost me work-life balance and a personal life like my own family, etc.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

But do you see that changing over time?

SPEAKER_00 53:33

I would like it to. I just need to change my ways, which is you can have it all. I I don't know what that means. I think to me, having it all means alignment. Yeah, you can't have everything everybody else has. Nobody has everything.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

But can you have what you want? Having it all is what you want.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Yeah, I think that you can have most of what you want, but I think in reality you will always have a problem or two, and that's just life. And I think self-acceptance is important. I used to want to solve all my problems and have no problems. I was so determined to like be problem-free, and now I realize no matter who you are, where you are, what's happening in life, call it problem, call it challenge, call it, you know, struggles. You will have struggles. That's life. And the sooner you accept that and say, okay, bring it on, the more content you'll be every time you have a new problem. But it will never go away.

SPEAKER_02 54:27

No. But if one person believes in you, you'll always do better. You only need one person. You had your father who's always believed in you, and now you believe in you, and now here you are believing in all these other staff. So I think if one person believes in us, for me it was my grandmother, you'll be okay. So I'm glad you believe in you. But I love the fact that you believe in your team. You're so you're like the mother hen, really loving them all. So you are one of my favourite rule breakers, and I want to give you my book, your mind, your rules. And I said to my darling Marina, my favourite rule breaker.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Thank you. I love this.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

You're such an inspiration for other women. I hope women watching this go, Wow. People who make it leave clues. Today you have learned so many clues on these amazing women. So don't just learn them, apply them, watch this again and again. Because when someone could think, wow, she can do it, I can do it. Everybody's a cute, she's given you so much value today. She is a person of value, and you can do what she did with ambition, drive, dedication, but also phenomenal self-belief. You have to have self-belief, and you've got to marry that to hard work. As you say, you can have hard work and no self belief, and you can have self belief and no hard work. But when you have both, you will be unstoppable and you'll inspire others. Thank you so much. See you next time. Thank you, darling. You're amazing. You're the best. Thank you, thank you, thank you.